Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/02/1994 09:05 AM Senate STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up SB 280 (ESTABLISH AFOGNAK ISLAND STATE               
 PARK) as the final order of business before the Senate State                  
 Affairs Committee today.  The chairman calls representatives from             
 the Department of Law (LAW) and the Department of Natural Resources           
 (DNR) to testify.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 439                                                                    
                                                                               
 CRAIG TILLERY, Assistant Attorney General, Department of Law states           
 SB 280 was introduced at the request of the governor and is                   
 supported by the governor.  SB 280 is also supported by the Borough           
 of Kodiak, the City of Kodiak, the Kodiak Chamber of Commerce, the            
 Kodiak Visitors' Association, most of the commercial fishing                  
 operations and organizations, tour operators, and all the citizens            
 of the Kodiak area that he has been in communication with.  The               
 reason SB 280 is before the legislature is the land that is                   
 outlined in yellow on the map that has been submitted to the                  
 committee was acquired through the Exxon Valdez Trustee Council               
 with restoration funds.  It was acquired as part of the Trustee               
 Council's imminent threat process.  Which means it was land that              
 had to be acquired quickly or something was going to happen that              
 would possibly make the land not available for sale at a later                
 date.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Of the imminent threat process, there were only two parcels of land           
 that stood out as highly valuable for restoration purposes: those             
 were Kachemak Bay inholdings, and the Seal Bay portion of Afognak             
 Island.  As you know, Kachemak Bay has been purchased and is now              
 part of Kachemak Bay State Park.  The Trustee Council then moved on           
 this portion and acquired this section down here (Mr. Tillery                 
 points to map).                                                               
                                                                               
 Mr. Tillery states that this was originally proposed by the U.S.              
 Department of the Interior (DOI); they wished to acquire this land            
 for the DOI to connect to refuge properties on another area of                
 Afognak Island.  That was unacceptable to the State of Alaska and             
 the State Trustees; they did not want more federal land in that               
 area.  The state was able to prevail on that point with the help of           
 the Attorney General's Office and the Department of Law.  The                 
 United States then agreed to allow the state to have first shot at            
 acquiring this land.  The agreement is if the state purchases the             
 land and puts it into a state park designation within one year, the           
 state will acquire title to the land.  If that does not happen,               
 then the land will be conveyed to the United States Government.               
                                                                               
 The acquisition of this land by the state occurred on November 23,            
 1993, so the state has one year from that date to designate that              
 land a state park.  If it does not do so, that land will pass to              
 the United States Government.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 470                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states SB 280 provides for this land to be a park.  Mr.           
 Tillery refers to the map to explain which land will be included in           
 the park.  Marmot Island will not be included in the boundaries of            
 the park.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 483                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states the trustees insisted that the existing uses of            
 the island be allowed.  Hunting, fishing, trapping, and limited               
 commercial use is required to be permitted.  However, limited                 
 commercial use must be consistent with restoration purposes.  What            
 is intended by "limited commercial use" is guiding operations and             
 those kinds of activities.  We want outfitters to be able to go in            
 there, we want hunting guides to be able to go in there, to the               
 extent it is permitted by the state boards of fisheries and game.             
 If this becomes state land, then those activities will be                     
 permitted.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Mr. Tillery says it is supported by some citizens of Kodiak because           
 they like parks, while other citizens support it because they do              
 not want any more federal management of land in Alaska.  It has,              
 however, had pretty much unanimous support from citizens of Kodiak.           
 We believe SB 280 will be good for the environment, good for the              
 business community of Kodiak and the southern Kenai Peninsula, and            
 it will be good for the State of Alaska.                                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 495                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what valuation was placed on the timberlands.             
 MR. TILLERY responds that information can be found behind tab 12 in           
 the report submitted to the committee.  The chart on page 5 of tab            
 12 indicates that the timber value of the Seal Bay unit was                   
 appraised at about 36.5 million dollars.  Another portion of the              
 proposed Afognak Island State Park has virtually no timber value.             
 Another portion of the proposed state park has already been clear-            
 cut.                                                                          
                                                                               
 There are some roads through the land.  Some of those roads may be            
 necessary to get to timber operations outside park lands.  The                
 state is part of an existing road use agreement.  We are working              
 with Afognak Joint Ventures to insure that roads necessary to their           
 operations are kept available to them.  Otherwise, the sellers will           
 be required to comply with the Forest Practices Act and put roads             
 to bed that aren't needed for other purposes.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 514                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks about a phrase on page 5, Section 41.21.187,              
 subsection (b) which states, "Lawful use of a weapon in the Afognak           
 Island State Park shall be allowed except in areas that may be                
 closed for purposes of public safety by regulation by the                     
 commissioner of natural resources."  The chairman asks what                   
 instances Mr. Tillery can think of where an area might be closed to           
 lawful use of a weapon for purposes of public safety.                         
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY says he would prefer to defer to the Department of                
 Natural Resources for that question.  He cannot think of many                 
 options where that would be needed, unless it was in an area where            
 shooting simply wouldn't be safe.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 522                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the only use that is intended to be stopped is            
 the use for which the land was selected in the first place.                   
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds that when he spoke with the sellers of the               
 land they said the land was not traditional land and was not                  
 traditionally used by the natives, but was selected for business              
 purposes.                                                                     
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments business purposes means timber harvesting             
 purposes.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 524                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY says the native corporation told the state business               
 purposes.  The native corporation's view is that with this sale,              
 they will have accomplished their business purpose.  There is a               
 statement in the report to the committee from the native                      
 corporation stating the use for which the corporation intends to              
 use the money, which is sustained, local economic development,                
 rather than spending the money on essentially a lot of out-of-state           
 loggers to come and cut our land, put in round logs, and export               
 them to the far east.                                                         
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the native corporation could have easily built            
 mills on their own land; no one ever required them to sell all the            
 raw lumber to the far east.                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds it's true it was not required, but that is               
 what was happening.                                                           
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why that was.                                             
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds he does not know.                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he does not know either, and most of the                  
 logging operations in Southeast went broke selling lumber to Japan.           
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states, in this instance, the native corporation has              
 acquired a substantial sum of money with which they hope to be able           
 to go through sustained development of lodges and other types of              
 similar activities.                                                           
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what damage was done to this land by the Exxon            
 Valdez oil spill.                                                             
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY replies the shorelines were oiled and there were a                
 number of marbled murrelets, black oyster-catchers, and other                 
 animals that were killed.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 538                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks how creating this park would restore this land.           
                                                                               
 Number 539                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds the scientists who have been advising the                
 state indicate that protecting the habitat, particularly of the               
 marbled murrelets and bald eagles, would allow those species to               
 regenerate their populations.  They nest in trees in the area.  In            
 addition, protecting this area puts less stress on sub-tidal and              
 inter-tidal biota.  There is an analysis under tab 8 that indicates           
 the potential for benefit is high for bald eagles and marbled                 
 murrelets, moderate for anadromous fish, black oyster-catchers,               
 harbor seals, harlequin ducks, and inter-tidal and sub-tidal biota.           
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says that doesn't have a thing to do with the oil              
 spill.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 547                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states those species listed in the analysis under tab             
 8 are the species that experts analyzing the oil spill indicated              
 suffered injury.  Most of them suffered significant population                
 level injuries.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 549                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why the state is paying a price for this land             
 based upon logged values for an area that the people of Alaska will           
 never be able to utilize for logging.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 552                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds the state is paying a price based on log                 
 values because that is what the seller is willing to sell for.  The           
 seller would prefer to sell the land to the state, leave the trees            
 standing, they still make the money, and the animals are still                
 restored.  We believe everyone wins in this case except Bruce                 
 Babbitt (Secretary of the Interior); he loses, he doesn't get the             
 land.                                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 559                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why Bruce Babbitt cares.  The land will be                
 locked up exactly the same by us as it will be by Bruce, doing                
 Bruce's work for him.  He will lock up the land exactly the same              
 way as the state.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 560                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY replies that is not the case, and suggests the                    
 committee let Mr. Johannsen of DNR answer that question.  Mr.                 
 Johannsen can tell you how DNR intends to manage this, probably in            
 a way substantially different from the way Bruce Babbitt would                
 manage it.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 561                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR notes that on page four of the report the appraiser            
 states, "It is my opinion that the Kachemak Bay Timber was over-              
 valued."                                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states that comment is from the review appraiser from             
 DNR, not the appraiser of the land.  DNR's appraiser believed that            
 the timber had been over-valued.  What happened with the sale                 
 price, was the state paid 38.7 million dollars.  The total property           
 was appraised at 41 million dollars.  In addition to the Kachemak             
 Bay land, the state received Tonki Cape, essentially as a donation,           
 from the Seal Bay Timber Company, which was valued at about 11 or             
 12 million dollars.  So the total value of these lands is in excess           
 of the purchase price.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 585                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he doesn't have further questions but he finds            
 it disappointing that native peoples of Alaska, who fought to                 
 accomplish a lands settlement, are selling their property.  Their             
 goal within that lands settlement was to acquire title to real                
 property, so that they could become self-sufficient.  Senator                 
 Taylor says he would really love to see what number of                        
 shareholders, who own this land, are who are currently on welfare.            
 How many of them actually have real year-round jobs?  He would like           
 to find out what the economy is really like out there.  How can               
 anyone in their right mind in this legislature justify taking land            
 away from private owners so that we can lock it up so no one can              
 earn a living on that land.  Excepting a few backpackers guiding              
 someone.  The native corporations selected this land for a purpose.           
 That purpose had something to do with their native rights.  Now               
 we're allowing them to sell the land back to the government.  The             
 government is buying them off of their land.  He says he agrees               
 with Mr. Tillery: it is just a win-win situation.  The native                 
 corporation is going to get all this money.  Senator Taylor wonders           
 if the natives in the area will end up like the natives in Kake,              
 where there is the highest suicide rate of any place in the U.S.              
 for two years.  He says the state will end up with more land that             
 can't be used, one more park.                                                 
                                                                               
 So the question is, do we run it, or do the feds?                             
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY says that is the question.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 585                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why he should spend taxpayer's dollars to                 
 continue to participate in this...                                            
                                                                               
 TAPE 94-12, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 593                                                                    
                                                                               
 ...waste of a resource that was selected so that human beings could           
 make a living.  If someone wants to waste resources, why don't we             
 let the federal government waste their resources on it.  Senator              
 Taylor says he doesn't think Mr. Johannsen has enough money in his            
 budget at DNR to even do a good job of emptying the garbage cans on           
 the Kenai Peninsula.  But Senator Taylor is supposed to believe               
 that somehow in the future his budget is going to be big enough to            
 take care of additional responsibilities?                                     
                                                                               
 Senator Taylor states he is not just sitting and looking at these             
 pieces of paper; he has hunted and walked the land and driven the             
 logging roads.  What Mr. Tillery is suggesting is a travesty.  Our            
 people on that committee (the trustees council?) should be removed            
 for even considering purchasing real property to lock it up because           
 some eco-looney is concerned about the oiled beaches.  How do oiled           
 beaches have anything to do with the right of the native americans            
 who own that land to earn a living on it?  Senator Taylor says it             
 is a pay-off to tie up Alaskan land.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 574                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are any more questions of Mr. Tillery.           
 Hearing none, he asks Mr. Johannsen if he would like to take the              
 hot-seat.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 568                                                                    
                                                                               
 NEIL JOHANNSEN, Director, Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation,             
 Department of Natural Resources says he appreciates Mr. Tillery               
 warming up the committee before his opportunity to testify                    
 (laughter all around).  Mr. Johannsen states the Department of                
 Natural Resources (DNR) came late into the process of setting up a            
 state park on Afognak Island.  In his conversations with Mr.                  
 Tillery and then Attorney General Charlie Cole, Mr. Johannsen                 
 simply offered to accept the land if it was the legislature's                 
 desire that the land become part of a state park, because the                 
 option to do so seemed more desirable than turning the land over to           
 the federal government.  Mr. Johannsen says DNR came to the                   
 conclusion, after some discussions on the subject last summer, that           
 they would support SB 280.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 556                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says DNR envisions managing the land passively.  DNR            
 is not in a position to actively manage the area.  It would be a              
 park with a small "p".  However, contrary to what one sees in much            
 of the federal Interior Department conservation units, state                  
 managed parks are open to any number of uses.  It would not be open           
 to timber harvests, but hunting, fishing, trapping, and some                  
 limited commercial activities would be permitted.                             
                                                                               
 Mr. Johannsen points out that the nearby Shuyak State Park, created           
 in 1984, has been a pretty successful unit.  DNR was able to build            
 five public use cabins in the park.  The cabins are full all summer           
 and get a lot of use in the fall and early winter by deer hunters.            
                                                                               
 Number 542                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says that, in answer to Chairman Leman's earlier                
 question about the control of firearms for public safety purposes,            
 refers to areas such as Totem Bight State Park, Harding Lake                  
 Recreation Area, and near public use cabins.  Public use cabins               
 have a quarter-mile radius around them in which discharge of                  
 firearms is prohibited for public safety purposes.  That is the               
 intent of the language on page 5, Section 41.21.187, subsection (b)           
 of SB 280.  Mr. Johannsen says he does not have much testimony to             
 add to what Mr. Tillery said, however, Mr. Johannsen hopes that at            
 some point DNR will be able to provide some basic recreation                  
 facilities in the park.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 525                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Johannsen to clarify that the area is used            
 for deer hunters.                                                             
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN answers the Shuyak State Park has heavy use by deer             
 hunters, however, he does not know the wildlife situation on                  
 Afognak Island very well.  He does believe that there are quite a             
 few deer, elk, and bear in the Afognak area though.                           
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Johannsen if he knows that deer and elk are           
 alien species to that island.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN replies he knows that fact.                                     
                                                                               
 SENATOR DUNCAN asks if the state transplanted those species to that           
 area.                                                                         
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR responds the federal government transplanted those             
 species to that area long before the state had a fish & game                  
 department in the state that whined about that sort of crap.                  
                                                                               
 Number 520                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the state will do when the state finds a             
 large bug infestation in that area.                                           
                                                                               
 MR JOHANNSEN says he does not expect there would ever be much of a            
 beetle infestation problem in that area.  Although he is the park             
 director at DNR, all his degrees, including his master's degree,              
 are in forestry.  Afognak Island is mostly sitka spruce country and           
 a rainforest area.  Mr. Johannsen says he has quite a bit of forest           
 entomology in his past and does not expect that area to ever have             
 the infestation problem one sees on the Kenai Peninsula.                      
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if we should worry about allowing the same                
 people that are wandering around in Kachemak Bay State Park to                
 wander around in Afognak Island State Park, because they might                
 bring the bugs with them.  He is concerned that there is no                   
 indication SB 280 would allow proper silvicultural management in              
 that area.  So that if an infestation were to occur, DNR is                   
 precluded from using commercial timber harvesting or thinning as an           
 option to do stewardship on this park, which probably should be               
 mandated.                                                                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 506                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says, with all due respect, that he disagrees.  DNR             
 has been actively cutting a lot of trees this winter on the Kenai             
 Peninsula in agreement with commercial logging operations for                 
 silvacultural purposes, so the previous statement isn't necessarily           
 true.  Mr. Johannsen says his biggest concern is that DNR wouldn't            
 be in a financial position to actively pursue silvacultural                   
 practices.  Mr. Johannsen reiterates that DNR would only be                   
 restricted from silvacultural practices in the Afognak Island area            
 for financial reasons, and not because of legal reasons.  Unless              
 perhaps DNR entered into an agreement with a logging operation to             
 handle silvacultural operations on the island.                                
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR states it is his understanding that in the agreement           
 signed relating to Afognak Island State Park, that would not be               
 allowed.                                                                      
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says he would have to defer ultimate judgement on               
 that question to Mr. Tillery.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 491                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says that is his concern, that if the state is to              
 take over this area for management purposes, it should be able to             
 properly manage this land.                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN states he came into the process at a fairly late                
 point, and is not entirely up on the conditions of the purchase               
 agreement.                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he is offended it is a given that timber                  
 harvesting is determined to be an adverse, negative thing to be               
 doing as concerns the other species.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 476                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states the trustees council made a specific finding in            
 their resolution stating that existing laws and regulations are               
 intended under normal circumstances to protect resources from                 
 serious adverse affects.  However, restoration as a result of the             
 Exxon Valdez oil spill, in the view of the experts on the advisory            
 council, constitute a unique situation.  The advisory council feels           
 that, in this instance, it is appropriate to have a prohibition               
 against commercial timber operations.  Everyone on that council               
 believed that, under normal circumstances, logging operations can             
 occur, and can be of benefit to the land in some instances.                   
                                                                               
 Number 466                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments the only reason the state is spending money           
 for this land is to keep it from being logged.  How does one then             
 not draw the implication that logging is somehow an evil that we              
 must spend money to prevent.  Senator Taylor expresses concern over           
 Senator Zharoff representing Prince of Wales Island.  Logging                 
 enhanced the deer population of Prince of Wales Island.                       
                                                                               
 Number 445                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN says he shares some of Senator Taylor's concerns               
 about logging.  The chairman does not equate logging to be an evil            
 exacted upon the land.  If done properly, we can have logging that            
 is compatible with the natural state and the animals.  The chairman           
 thinks SB 280 eliminates the possibility of generating some new               
 wealth and being short sighted in not allowing timber harvest on              
 the island.  That is the chairman's main concern.  Senator Leman              
 states he would like to have the capability to enjoy the land,                
 while also being able to extract riches from it.                              
                                                                               
 Number 418                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR ELLIS asks who was involved in SB 280.                                
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN responds the persons involved were Commissioners                
 Sandor and Rosier and Attorney General Cole.  The current trustees            
 are Commissioners Sandor and Rosier and Attorney General Botelho.             
                                                                               
 Number 408                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what happens to subsurface mineral rights.                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN says that is the subject of an amendment Senator               
 Zharoff would like to offer.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 404                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY states the subsurface rights are currently owned by the           
 Koniag Native Corporation.  Koniag wishes to sell the subsurface              
 rights to the trustees.  The trustees are interested in acquiring             
 those rights.  There do not appear to be any commercially valuable            
 subsurface resources.  For land management purposes the trustees              
 would like to consolidate the subsurface and surface estate into              
 one fee.  That is the subject of ongoing discussions with Koniag at           
 this moment.                                                                  
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Tillery if there is any ideas as to what              
 the value of the subsurface rights would be.                                  
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY replies there was an appraisal, and Koniag has made the           
 trustees an offer in the neighborhood of 2 million dollars.  The              
 offer made was 56 dollars an acre.  If the subsurface rights are              
 acquired, it would be done with trustee council funds.                        
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 382                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the trustees will pay 2 million dollars, and              
 then guarantee the federal government that we will prevent anyone             
 from utilizing the subsurface rights for any purpose.  We will make           
 sure that no evil mining operation will take place, because that              
 might upset some little eagle.  Senator Taylor is also concerned              
 with the amount of state funds that may be used in the future to              
 support Afognak Island State Park.  Do we really need another                 
 41,000 acres of passive parkland to manage?                                   
                                                                               
 Number 365                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says the state probably has about 40 units that are             
 passively managed.  That's not to say they do not get a fair amount           
 of use.  Distasteful as it might be to some people, Mr. Johannsen             
 says, SB 280 is really a state's rights issue.  Maybe, in terms of            
 long-term financial impact to the state, maybe the land should go             
 to the feds.  But the state does manage park areas differently than           
 the feds.  The state's management approach is more permissive, from           
 the standpoint of commercial operations and hunting and subsistence           
 activities.  Mr. Johannsen says it is superior to have DNR manage             
 the area rather than the U.S. Interior Department.                            
                                                                               
 Number 350                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the state is spending on Shuyak State Park           
 at this time.                                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says the money the state makes from renting public              
 use cabins in Shuyak State Park pays for the management of the                
 park.  Mr. Johannsen thinks the state spends about 20,000 dollars             
 per year to manage Shuyak State Park.                                         
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if DNR is planning to build public use cabins             
 in Afognak Island State Park.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN answers he would like to do that.  Public use cabins            
 would be a good use in that park.                                             
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if that wouldn't be the only use of the park.             
                                                                               
 MR. JOHANNSEN replies he does not know, but the Seal Bay Area would           
 be an excellent place to have public use cabins.  Public use cabins           
 are certainly of benefit to the local economy.  He thinks Uyak Air            
 in Kodiak will tell anyone the five cabins in Shuyak State Park               
 have been great for their business.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 336                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces there is an amendment that has been                  
 distributed to the committee.  The chairman asks Senator Zharoff,             
 who suggested the amendment, to discuss the amendment.                        
                                                                               
 Number 334                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR ZHAROFF says he has recently become aware of the                      
 negotiations to set up Afognak Island State Park.  The question now           
 is whether the legislature wants this land under state management             
 or federal management.  Senator Zharoff thinks a number of                    
 legislators who have both management systems in their district                
 could recognize the difference in management styles.  Before                  
 redistricting, Katmai National Refuge was in Senator Zharoff's                
 district and he received numerous complaints regarding the                    
 management there, particularly with the traditional users of the              
 area.  Federal rangers were callous to the needs of the local                 
 people which caused a tremendous amount of problems with hunting,             
 berry picking, and travelling through the refuge.  If the land must           
 be under either state or federal management, Senator Zharoff would            
 rather see it under state management.                                         
                                                                               
 Senator Zharoff states a question did come up over the subsurface             
 mineral rights.  The parties involved want to clarify that the                
 subsurface rights are part of the park system.  This amendment                
 would clarify that Koniag is giving up rights to subsurface as well           
 as surface area.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 297                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he does not have a problem with the                     
 amendment, if that is all it does.  However, the chairman is                  
 concerned it creates a commitment by the state or the trustees to             
 pay for subsurface rights.  Chairman Leman wants someone to clarify           
 that this amendment will not commit the state or the trustees to              
 pay Koniag for subsurface rights in the area being considered for             
 Afognak Island State Park.  The chairman asks Mr. Tillery if this             
 amendment would create an obligation.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 290                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY says it is certainly not the intent of the amendment to           
 cause that obligation.  It would only clarify what is in SB 280               
 now, which is: if the state acquires the subsurface rights to that            
 area, then it is merged with the surface and is part of the park.             
 This amendment does not commit the state to pay Koniag for                    
 subsurface rights.  Mr. Tillery cannot conceive of the state paying           
 for subsurface rights.  The trustee council, however, may possibly            
 pay for it.  He cannot imagine the state appropriating money to               
 purchase the subsurface rights.                                               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN restates his question: that passing this amendment             
 would not create an obligation, on anyone's part, to purchase the             
 subsurface rights.                                                            
                                                                               
 MR. TILLERY responds that is correct.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 281                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Senator Zharoff how many of his constituents              
 were employed and actively working at logging on these lands when             
 the Exxon Valdez Settlement Trustee's Council passed the resolution           
 shutting down logging in the area.                                            
                                                                               
 SENATOR ZHAROFF replies he does not know.  There were people                  
 working there though.                                                         
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR wants to know how many people have been put out of             
 work and had to go on welfare, unemployment, and food stamps in               
 order to protect the poor little marbled murrelet.                            
                                                                               
 Number 262                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR DUNCAN asks to move the amendment for discussion.                     
                                                                               
 Number 259                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any discussion.  Hearing none, the            
 chairman asks if there is any objection to adopting the amendment.            
 Hearing none, the chairman notes the amendment has been adopted.              
 The chairman asks if there is any further discussion and what the             
 pleasure of the committee might be regarding SB 280.                          
                                                                               
 Number 251                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR DUNCAN makes a motion to release SB 280 from the Senate               
 State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                      
                                                                               
 Number 232                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is objection to the motion.  Hearing             
 objection, he asks the secretary to call the roll.                            
                                                                               
 Voting in favor of the motion are Senators Leman, Duncan, and                 
 Ellis.  Voting in opposition to the motion are Senators Miller and            
 Taylor.  The motion passes three yeas, two nays.                              

Document Name Date/Time Subjects